I have been watching this one pretty carefully. To honor the anniversary of September 11, this genius has decided to burn the Quran in protest..... Part of the media bias and backlash over the WTC Mosque is starting, and pious, entitled, people like this are starting to crawl towards the surface. Despite the government and other religious leaders asking him not to do this, he is remaining steadfast in his determination. This has got to be, one of the most selfish acts that I have ever seen done in the name of Christianity in my life; he is basically making innocent American soldiers moving targets in the Middle East. I am all for civil disobedience, but this is just so thoughtless towards the soldiers over there. Principles over life- Principles always wins with the XTians- Screw all the rest.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hKWWJdTrfALpbYfWB6fM58p6u-pwD9I3NLQO1
I don't think I can get behind you on this one. He has a right to burn the Quran, and we should defend that. She we be told not to speak up against Islam because of the possible repercussions?
ReplyDeleteSecondly, it has nothing to do with Principles, it has to do with dogma. He's trying to basically say, "My god is bigger than your god." It has very little to do with "Principles," at least not in the sense that one stands for principles being seen in a good light.
Anyway, I don't like what he is doing because of the reason he's doing it, but I don't think we should be telling anyone not to do it. That's what living in a free country means, and we can't let our government take our freedoms hostage because of the actions of fundamentalists.
This has nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with exercising one's freedoms.
ReplyDeleteIf you let yourself be cowed from doing things that are your right to do, simply because someone somewhere threatens to react violently, then you deserve neither your rights and freedoms, nor the security you think your self-censorship will get you. And, in the long run, you will get neither one!
Why?
Because bullies are emboldened by appeasement, that's why. Show them they CAN bully you and they'll not stop at taking just your lunch money.
If you don't learn from history...
Perhaps it'll help if I re-phrase it a little differently. General P. - in charge of the US troops in Afghanistan (I think) has openly demanded that this guy not exercise his rights, lest some soldiers suffer the consequences.
Since WHEN does a US General have the right to tell a citizen which of his constitutionally guaranteed rights he may or may not exercise? Do you really want to live in a world where the wish of some General can trump constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedoms?
While I do agree with you both about it being his right to display that freedom, this is not that type of argument.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is, there are soldiers in countries. These innocent people will suffer for it. Exercising your democratic right in America is one thing (and yes, I agree it is his right), but he has to see what the repercussions for his actions will be. I do think that there will be a backlash, that is all that they have got. You are right, the US General does not have that right... But, what right does that guy have in starting a process that could cause bloodshed? Are there not more constructive ways of addressing your discontent? This is a human issue to me.....
I guess that I see it this way...
ReplyDeleteIf I was going to do that, I would not. Even though I know that I am well within my democratic rights to do so, I still would not. Reason being, I would not want any backlash given to innocent soldiers for my actions. Even one is too many. The reaction will be irrational and extreme, symptomatic of a dogmatic system. But, that will not change, as much as we hide behind constitutions and legislation. As long as we have religion, this is what we can expect. But, from one human being to the next, I would not do it.
I understand that it's not a mosque as such, but an Islamic cultural center, two blocks away from Ground Zero, and that there have been mosques on this site for 100 years. Is this right?
ReplyDeleteSince when were social socities ruled by the right of exercising ones freedom ?.If i happen to hate christian churches,can i exercise my rights and go burn them?.If i like speeding ,may i exercise my right and speed when ever i wish to?.
ReplyDeleteI understand the idea of freedom, but in social societies there is never going to be no such thing as honest freedom of rights.Even in other primate social socities ,freedom of rights doesnt exist.Social societies cant even work by having rules that equal freedom of rights.Somewhere the lines need to be drawn and freedom of rights dont exist,or society would simply end up as complete anarchy.
To be quite honest personally i`d be all for burning every single faith book! along with most of the faithful also, because i was born to a nasty cult ,but we are supposed to be living in a social society and so as such im not supposed to have the right to have the freedom to do it.
The fact that faithful have the freedom to create nasty faith books and cults ,which then messes with my freedom to have a decent life! without being effected by their freedoms, might be wrong.But thats because they are faithful folks who like to run religious dictatorships! ,rather than HONEST social societies.
I do understand why people might want to burn faith books,they havent such a great track record at creating such great social societies.
I agree with Xanthippa we shouldnt cower down ,but still i think it not so much about cowering down but much more about "taking stock" of matter at hand and trying to figure out where its all really going to start and end.
Not being prepered to cower down, wont do anyone much good if in the long run nuclear bombs start steadily raining from the skys from somewhere and landing in your back yard in the U.S.A.What good is anyones rights of freedoms going to be to any of us all then?.We will all have freedom to be sucking! on the nuclear! fall out, and quite likely have also woken some cashed up! sleeping giants! along the way.So how many freedoms will that leave us all then ?.
Personally i think the quran stinks and so does the bible too!.But im still not so very sure that this approach of the Rev Terry, is actually the very smartest ? move.
Trying to be a little smart about matters of what action humans might choose is best to take at the time, doesnt always need to equal any matter of us cowering down.
Often kids dont really want to be seen as the one! cowering down either.And it all seems great and mighty fine and dandy! until everyone! ends up in the hospital, nursing smashed heads and broken bones, and crying their wee eyes out over all the spilt milk, and feeling so hard done by and sorry about it.
Sadly its always a little to damn late then though.
At GCT
ReplyDeleteYou are right, sorta. Burning a Quran does not hurt anyone. but, what I have been saying is that it does. And, to be clear, I most certainly do not agree with the backlash that will ensue... However, just because I disagree does not make it any less real an outcome. I think that religion is an evil thing all around, and this is a great example of how fundamentalism hurts everyone. While I agree that we should not be afraid, it still stands to reason. And, Gandolf is right. Just because I hate Christian churches does not mean that I would bomb them because I would be afraid of hurting people inside. And, I think that we are all overlooking the role of the media at this one. If they had not done so much fear mongering around the mosque, this may have not been in the news at all.
This is the same as bombing an abortion clinic. And, the issue to me comes down to the person who starts the fire. Where is the sense of personal responsibility for your actions?
@ Xanthippa
ReplyDeleteI have a car, and I hate Chrisitian artifacts. I know that it is my right to display my dislike, and I announce that I am going to drive my car into a museum to destroy an exhibit of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I have that right.... Just because I can, does it mean I should?
A sane and rational person would balance the possibilities and consequences.... Maybe someone innocent would get hurt, maybe the damage will incite others into ruining the rest of the museum.... Maybe I will go to jail... So, maybe a better way to display my dislike might be to start teaching classes on this, or have groups, or even to meet with some Dead Sea scholars in an effort to bridge my dislike into understanding.
There has to be a better, less dangerous way of doing this.
GCT im all for burning Qurans,its not that im against it .But i think you are wrong some folks will decide they have a right to blow people up in retaliation.In a world where freedom of rights are what is suggested should run us ,who then gets to choose what freedoms are considered fine?.
ReplyDeleteTo my mind its "criminal and insane" that Westboro baptists can ostricize their own daughter and hate gay folk .But sadly so happens we do live in a pretty criminal and rather insane world ,ruled by all manner of "freedom of rights" rather than having a type of social soceity.
Im all for trying to put a stop! to it.But we need to be a little careful just how we decide to go about doing it.Doing stuff that maybe might help the bad guys get to recruit more! angry people to their cause ,maybe only makes peace and sanity a lot harder to gain in the long run.
The Taliban will be very thankful ! if Qurans do get burnt, it will make many muslim! very angry and make many more fully prepared ! to join the Taliban and become terrorists who will then certainly all learn to hate the U.S.A all the more.
If Christian bibles were burned, instead of peaceful theist who could maybe have a chance to learn to think ,you will have handed the Christians! their right to feel persecuted! and the anger and outrage will help fire up a Christian uprising.And then the only winner will be Christianity.
Please try to understand im not suggesting faith books should be offered protection! .My situation is i happen like folks in the USA a whole lot !,and id far prefer to see things get better rather than worse.But thats going to take use of stratagy and much thought that considers matters from every angle and long term ,but that doesnt equal any cowering .
GTC ..when you go hunt a deer you dont always walk straight up the river bed right? ,sometimes you might use some smart stratgegy and tactics and try slowly sneak up the side just inside the bushline .But that isnt any matter cowering!, no not at all!, its just learning to try to be a little smarter than your opponant is being.
I understand what you say about burning the Quran hurts nobody .But its just we are not always dealing with such terribly sane! people when ever we deal with folks of faith. Using some caution in the hunt, is no matter of cowering .Its really about understanding the foe and then using the best strategy.
This is now become a very "unsocial" world we all live in ,rights mean very little anymore.When a world has grown to be so "unsocial" ,folks all simply try to choose what "rights" they personally decide they prefer.
IMHO.
Even their own community is rallying against this tactic. For once, mainstream Christians are coming out of the woodwork and trying to get him to be reasonable. Either that, or they are afraid of being associated with any of it- which is more likely. Check this out.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/08/AR2010090806267.html?hpid=topnews
I think that this discussion clearly reflects why religion is one of the most evil things in the world.
"This is the same as bombing an abortion clinic."
ReplyDeleteNot even remotely. Is it OK to burn a Bible because we think Xians are less likely to attack American soldiers (I might face death threats all the same, of course)? You're talking about censorship because you're afraid of the backlash, but that's misguided. The backlash is the behavior that should not be tolerated. The backlash is the behavior that we should decry. Should I not burn an American flag because someone might get upset and attack me? Why should I curtail my freedoms because others might be offended? Doesn't that mean that the rioters win?
"I have a car, and I hate Chrisitian artifacts. I know that it is my right to display my dislike, and I announce that I am going to drive my car into a museum to destroy an exhibit of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I have that right...."
ReplyDeleteNo, you actually don't have that right, because by destroying property you are infringing upon the rights of others. Destroying a Quran does not rise to that level.
"A sane and rational person would balance the possibilities and consequences...."
Far be it from me to say that Terry Jones is either sane or rational, and I'm not doing that. But, I find it hard to believe that the sane and rational response is to kowtow to those who would usurp our rights, which is what you are doing by changing your life/rights/etc. to suit the whims of Muslim fanatics. Should we outlaw abortion because sometimes Xian fundamentalists kill abortion providers?
And, I totally agree with you. You are right- backlash is the behavior that should not be tolerated. But, that does not change it, unfortunately. To me, it is the same as bombing an abortion clinic. Not just that- its a book burning. Flip it around and look at it that way too.
ReplyDeleteIt still does not make it right. I am not talking at all about censorship. I am talking about people understanding what they are up against and having the maturity and insight to comprehend the implications of their actions. Again, just because you can, does not mean you shoul.
ARistotle talked about this in The Aim of Man;
"Even supposing the chief good to be eventually the aim for the individual as for the state, that of the state is evidently of greater and more fundamental importance both to attain and to preserve. The securing of one individual's good is cause for rejoicing, but to secure the good of a nation or of a city-state is nobler and more divine."
There has to be a more peaceful solution, a more conducive way of bridging between the communities. This will incite them, make them feel more justified, and make Christians look even worse.
Gandalf,
ReplyDelete"But i think you are wrong some folks will decide they have a right to blow people up in retaliation.In a world where freedom of rights are what is suggested should run us ,who then gets to choose what freedoms are considered fine?."
Which is all the more reason to stand up and say that we will not be ruled by religious fanatics. Secularism is the only way to ensure rights for all.
"To my mind its "criminal and insane" that Westboro baptists can ostricize their own daughter and hate gay folk ."
It's not criminal to hate or ostracize. It's ignorant, evil, etc, but not criminal. Freedom is hard, because it means that people have freedom to be douche nozzles if they so choose like the Westboro bunch.
"Doing stuff that maybe might help the bad guys get to recruit more! angry people to their cause ,maybe only makes peace and sanity a lot harder to gain in the long run."
Which is a good point, but I don't see accommodationism as doing much good in that respect. We need to show that we are not afraid of them, that we will not let them run our lives, etc.
Now, I understand your point about strategy, and I personally won't be burning a Quran. One sometimes does attract more flies with honey after all, but I don't see us gaining any traction by throwing away our values. How can we talk about freedom and rights in ME countries if we also turn around and tell them (thru our actions) that they can so easily make us abandon our principles by any threat of violence. It seems hypocritical, and it is.
Oops, sorry Gandolf for spelling your name wrong - it wasn't on purpose.
ReplyDeleteTink,
Can you really not see a difference between burning a Quran and bombing an abortion clinic? I doubt that you really think they are equivalent actions. One involves the destruction of a book while the other is a violent action that directly puts lives at danger and is the destruction of property, as well as a terroristic act.
Actually, if you think about it a little more, you might see that bombing the abortion clinic is closer to what you fear the Muslim fundamentalists will do. Again, should we ban abortions because sometimes abortion clinics are bombed by Xian fundamentalists?
"Again, just because you can, does not mean you shoul."
Of course. Having the ability to do something does not give one license to do it. In this case though, we're saying that one should not do this because others may be offended and usurp rights and freedoms from third parties.
Now, that said, if someone was holding a gun to a loved one's head and told me that saying a certain word would result in their death, I would refrain from saying that word. In that case, we have a credible threat that is imminent. That's not what we have in this case, however. We are currently at war and pissing off the Taliban isn't going to change that, nor will appeasement. Appeasement, in this case may be more harmful than standing up for freedom.
I do see the difference between the two actions, I really do. And, you are not wrong in what you are saying. But, the difference between us (in my opinion) is this; Burning a Quran may not directly hurt people. BUT, it is the biggest EFF U to a Muslim. The action (in their eyes) is just as bad as bombing a Mosque, and the reaction will suit the initial insult. The outcome will not justify the statement. The more abortion clinics they bombed, the stonger the pro-life (or antichoice as you call it) became. Now, their arguments have become irrelevant, and they resort to extreme measures to make people identify their opposition. Normal people just laugh at that.
ReplyDeleteThe metaphor that you used with the gun is exactly what I am getting at. It comes down to the person, and their ability to have insight and responsibility for their actions. There has to be another way, and threats of violence is enough for me. Some things are worth dying for.... This is not one of them.
"But, the difference between us (in my opinion) is this; Burning a Quran may not directly hurt people. BUT, it is the biggest EFF U to a Muslim. The action (in their eyes) is just as bad as bombing a Mosque, and the reaction will suit the initial insult."
ReplyDeleteI guess my point is that the Muslims who freak out over this need some perspective. They need to react with reason and rationality, and they need to be told that they do not have the right to act with violence simply because they are offended. When we tell them that we won't do anything to offend their sensibilities because we are afraid of them, well it just feeds the idea that acting irrationally and violently will get you what you want.
"There has to be another way, and threats of violence is enough for me."
There are always other ways until the other person leaves you with no options. Violence is one of those things that whittles down options rather quickly.
"Some things are worth dying for.... This is not one of them."
Is your freedom worth dying for? Are your rights worth dying for? Sure, it's hard to see it that way when some eff-wit fundie Xian is basically trying to boast about the size of his d*ck...I mean god, but I would similarly defend the rights of the KKK to have their free speech. Why? Because once we allow rights to erode from select groups, we debase our own rights.
Once again, I agree with you. I TOTALLY agree with you that Muslims, and all other religions, do need perspective. No doubt about it... But, is this not what we talk about all of the time? Religion hurts society, and this is a classic example. Human beings will never progress as long as we are stuck in these absurd rhetorical feedback loops... Sorry to say. Yes, I completely concur on a theoretical level with you.... As far as translating to a human to human interactional level, not with you on this one. The end does not justify the means here. Too much blood will be lost.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about defending the rights... What I meant what I said is that this is not worth dying for (and I should have been more clear) is that this is not an intelligent enough solution or approach. Doing a good old fashioned book burning is not the solution, this primal act is not worth the bloodshed. If this guy was working from a more dignified platform, such as calling for setting up a council to improve relations, or something that could serve to benefit humanity, that might be worth dying for.
GCT said.."Should I not burn an American flag because someone might get upset and attack me? Why should I curtail my freedoms because others might be offended? Doesn't that mean that the rioters win? "
ReplyDeleteHi GCT ! , to me the word should often sounds a bit like ought ,and can sometimes sound like maybe there is some "suprnatural objective" type rules we humans can be guided by.I do think we have some objectivity to help us decide on what might "best" be considered as the should/oughts ,but its often decided through using "majority thought" of a socail "group" .Because we dont "all" always agree on what actually is to be the should/ought .Like going to a number of Doctor for opinions on how best to treat a sickness ,this is how a social group can maybe "best" try to deal with having some "objective" type answers.
Its maybe not a "perfect system" ,but without having honest God-/s , maybe? its still the best option we have.To be honest ive already stated "i" pretty much fully agree with you in that in my opinion i also dont think we should "need" to fear actions of "dangerous people".And i agree we dont "need" to .But then thats like saying i dont think i should "need" to be wary of actions of dangerous gangs.While its very true statement ,it still doesnt change the fact! that thoughtless actions of mainic gang-members demand some extra fancy strategy when we try to find ways to best go about dealing with them .Simply because many gang maniacs dont really care if they live or die ,their lives are often already lots like the living the life of he "living dead" anyway!.So we need to beware and remember to take that "madness" into some consideration.Its simply sadly a fact! it can be very bad for our health if we dont.
So hope you understand im not saying you or anyone "should" or "ought" curtail anything.My concern is more that more good people do survive! ,so as to be able stick-around!! to help us all fight the good fight that will win!! in the long-run !! by use of better strategy! than the opponants using.
@ Gandolf- BTW, I really liked your deer hunting metaphor. My dad is a hardcore hunter, and I believe that they call that strategy "running the deer." I do think that more intelligent options are out there... This is a tough one. But, the good thing is that it gets us all talking.
ReplyDeleteI really would love if I live to see the day when religion is no longer a barrier in this world.
GCT said.."Which is all the more reason to stand up and say that we will not be ruled by religious fanatics. Secularism is the only way to ensure rights for all."
ReplyDeleteAnd i fully agree GCT with your thoughts .But im just not yet so sure that burning Qurans is the "best way" to go about approaching advertizing and inforcing our intentions .
GCT ..."It's not criminal to hate or ostracize. It's ignorant, evil, etc, but not criminal. Freedom is hard, because it means that people have freedom to be douche nozzles if they so choose like the Westboro bunch."
No its not been made criminal because our societies is ruled by "freedom of rights" ,we are all primates but we dont have any honest "social society" .A muslim bombs somebody to death and sombody has made "claims" that its totally illegal ,but yet the Westboro Baptist may blow somebodys whole life apart! and slowly torture them forever! .And its considered quite legal !? .
Why is a quick death illegal? .But a long slow death by applying nasty torture is fine ?.Plenty of people do still die! from this type torture ,(it hurts even far worse!) than any quick death ever does , often slowly brings on bad health! ,and sometimes even leads some to commit suicide! to try and escape the extreme endless pain they experience which nobody much seems? to care about.
Who gets the "right" to be choosing which is worse?.Why is it the less "painful" option ,is considered as illegal? ,while the far more painful is considered as being quite legal and ok?.
I agree freedom is hard .Its hard because one mans freedom can be thought another mans criminal offence.As you say this idea of having "freedoms" simply give Westboro`s the "right" to be nasty "douche nozzles" ,and that very same "freedom" at the same time!! "take away" another persons "freedom" to have the "right" (not! to be) treated terrible by some nasty freaky "douche nozzles"? .
So where is "honesty" of true "freedom" ?.With those that get the "right" to choose?.
That aint any honest "freedom" ,thats still some folk needing to try and live a type of dictatorship.
GCT i agree we should not be afraid .Im not afraid of Gangs either.We as a community let them know that ...But that dont mean as a community we going to purposely! go draw pictures of their "gang insignia" and then make it a special community occasion where we all going to gather and go burn it .
Doing that almost lowers us to use of their type of chosen strategy .It give them! more ammo to then use against us as a community .Its likely to bring condemnation and heat back on us as a community , and instead of other countries being able to back us ,instead other countries may need start feeling maybe they have to side with the gang for a type of ethical reason .Akin to explianing to kids look dont throw stones,and then we the rest of the world can be held to account! to all agree! to back the one who choose "not to go out of their way" to choose doing it.
GTC i think our strength lays in doing our best to be forming a world wide social system .Social systems cant be so eaily formed on making it ok that two wrongs somehow make something right.
I agree with you ,we need to show these pricks we the world are no afraid ..And we will ((ALL)) unite ! against terror .
To do that we need to create a type social society where we all get together ,decide together ,keep each other close ! hopefully also including any sleeping giants ! .Rather than trying to run a world on demanding "freedom of rights" ,because a world run on "freedom of rights" is hard to find some honest social society that will honestly work .
Because one man idea of "freedom of right" can just as easily be twisted to become another mans biggest nightmare.
Where will it end?.
PS GTC ...No worrys! about name spelling ! .Ive purposely spelt it a little different than Gandalf of the movie is spelt.
ReplyDeleteBesides ...:( sorry my friend ...i now see ive mis-spelt your name also !.
Hi Tink you said .."BTW, I really liked your deer hunting metaphor. My dad is a hardcore hunter, and I believe that they call that strategy "running the deer." I do think that more intelligent options are out there... This is a tough one. But, the good thing is that it gets us all talking."
ReplyDeleteThanks ,yes in my opinion we humans need to discuss it more.I might live a long way away ,but never the less when i see your folk getting sent home in coffins, it still grieves us all very much! to see it.
Nice! that your dad enjoys the great outdoors .I do also do hunting myself for meat for the freezer.Infact may i ask, if your dad happens to know anyone who might be interested in looking to invest in a property that could be run as a type of game park, to harness some profit! while also combining conserving nature, and be a great place to have freedom to enjoy .I have such a property and just lately ive become keen to look at maybe taking on partner/investor-/s .
Sadly conservation isnt cheap ,propertys still cost money to keep them afloat and out of the hands of dairy farmers, who like! to fell every single tree !and grow grass and herds of mega! cows, that then produce mega farts! and shit in all the streams! and then slowly kill the trout too ! ...L.o.L
Just a thought ,just incase by chance your Dad might know somebody who might be a little keen on possibly getting involved in such a venture.
The pastor has decided to not do it..... I caught it on the National.
ReplyDeleteOh God, here is his final statement;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11255490
This is such a mess all around. I see so many problems coming out of this one.
@ Gandolf
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, my dad would not go anywhere he could not drive too. He is not big on leaving Canada. In fact, if he never leaves here again, he would be happy. He really dislikes the States, and loves his country to the point of delusion. He will yell at me for half an hour if I even suggest protesting because he thinks that we live in the best country in the world, and we have nothing to protest over. And, I think that the guys he hunts with are the same.
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating the burning of books. I'm not saying that burning Qurans in the best way to deal with Muslim fundamentalists.
ReplyDeleteTink,
"The end does not justify the means here."
Wait, how am I advocating an ends justifying the means situation? If anything, that is what your position is. The means of not exercising freedoms would be justified by the ends of not inciting violence.
"What I meant what I said is that this is not worth dying for (and I should have been more clear) is that this is not an intelligent enough solution or approach."
And, this is where I disagree. Defending our freedom of expression is worth dying for. I would not like to have to run everything I say past a fundie for approval.
Gandolf,
"No its not been made criminal because our societies is ruled by "freedom of rights" ,we are all primates but we dont have any honest "social society" ."
From what I'm reading, you seem to have this idea that freedom of rights means that I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want, to anyone I want. That's not what the concept entails, however. My rights end when they start to curtail the rights of others. I don't have a right to bomb people, because that violates their freedom of rights. I don't have the right to punch someone in the face, because it violates their rights. I do have a right to say inflamatory things because people do not have a right to not be offended.
"Because one man idea of "freedom of right" can just as easily be twisted to become another mans biggest nightmare."
No, it can't if we actually grant everyone equal rights.
Here is somthing to think about;
ReplyDeleteWhat if this guy was a Holocaust Denier? What if he was electing to burn The Diary of Anne Frank?
I agree, dying for your freedoms is worth it. But, a good old book burning just is not worth it to me. It would be different if he was going to burn a group of holy texts, then I would feel different about it. But, he is not. He is specifying one group here, and that is wrong. These are folks who have no support, and have often been placed in positions of violence to defend themselves. All religions have extremists.... I fear all religions equally that way.
I hear what you are saying, and fundamentally, at the core of this argument- you are right. On an intellectual level, totally agree with you. I just hate that this issue rests on the shoulders of innocent people who could be killed.
And whose fault is it that innocent people are in the cross hairs? That's my problem with it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if it were a Holocaust Denier, so what? Holocaust deniers also have free speech rights.
I'm still wondering if we should shut down abortion clinics since it sometimes incites violence from Xian fanatics and innocent people end up getting hurt. Or, how about the fact that some people just can't countenance the existence of atheists. Perhaps atheist bloggers should not blog because it might incite fundamentalists to violence and innocent people might get injured.
They do- Holocaust Deniers- but what I am getting at is the reaction and the outcome.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about this more today, and I think that if the media would have ignored this guy, it would not be what it is. This issue is very different from abortion clinics and you know that. I agree with you about the innocent people in the cross hairs, I really do... That does not mean that the threat is no more real.
BTW- Not one of my finer moments..
ReplyDeleteThere is a clinic in my hood. I used to get so angry at the way that they harassed the poor women trying to get in there. When I was younger, and full of more piss and vinegar, I used to throw eggs at them... It was fun, and I am lucky I was not arrested.
"This issue is very different from abortion clinics and you know that."
ReplyDeleteYes - in one respect - harrassing people outside abortion clinics and bombing abortion clinics is much worse. In another respect, if we view the reaction to abortion and the deaths that ensue to innocent people then it's very similar to the reasons being given for not burning Qurans. I honestly don't see why it's any different to ask:
If we shouldn't burn the Quran because it may incite fundamentalists to violence, why is abortion OK since that also incites fundamentalists to violence (especially since we KNOW that fundies resort to violence, not just that they may)? Why are atheist blogs OK since those may also incite fundies to violence? Etc. etc. etc.
The answer to your question is quite obvious- on the one level, you are right. It is all the same. And, yes, it does all fall under the same umbrella. No doubt about it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, to me, the difference is this. Those things occur in our part of the world. The people who will be affected are not protected by our laws and civil rights. Yes, fundies go to jail for shooting abortion clinics, fundies who attack atheist bloggers will be prosecuted... Blah blah blah. These folks (soldiers in the Middle East) are strangers in a strange land, in very different countries with different perspectives toward human and civil rights. There is no sense of justice at all for them. Maybe that is the distinction to me.
And those people won't just be prosecuted, but hunted by our military. I think I'd rather be prosecuted in our country.
ReplyDeleteTink said.."Unfortunately, my dad would not go anywhere he could not drive too. He is not big on leaving Canada. In fact, if he never leaves here again, he would be happy."
ReplyDeleteI dont blame your Dad , Canada seems mighty choice.No i just thought he might know someone else thinking of moving over this way ,we do get plenty of folks moving over this way from the states and Canada and even England and Germany etc.Many move to places like Qeenstown or Wanaka cause of the lakes and all the skiing .L.o.L
GTC said..."My rights end when they start to curtail the rights of others"
ReplyDeleteBut no .See GTC your rights still exist to even use dodgy tactic or be abusive ,that might happen to "curtail" my "right" not to need suffer dodgy tactic or be abused.
If so happen you are bigger,or maybe have more money, more friends, or a bigger gang with larger weapons .Or laws made by some "others" dont happen to give a f**k about my rights and freedoms..I lose! ...My "freedoms" and "rights" suddenly disappeared! into thin air! and become bullshite.
The fact you freedoms and rights "curtailed" my freedoms and rights .In this case all real honesty makes little difference.Big Dog wins ,in a dog eat dog kind of world.
I understand where you are coming from in general GTC and mostly i agree with you .But like you kind of already said, this matter of rights and freedom is far more complicated than we often fully realize.
GTC.."And whose fault is it that innocent people are in the cross hairs? That's my problem with it."
ReplyDeleteGTC said.."If we shouldn't burn the Quran because it may incite fundamentalists to violence, why is abortion OK since that also incites fundamentalists to violence (especially since we KNOW that fundies resort to violence, not just that they may)? Why are atheist blogs OK since those may also incite fundies to violence? Etc. etc. etc."
GTC talking about matter of who`s "fault" it might or might not be, maybe is another whole matter that maybe also is very deep, long standing, and could even be very complicated.Im not sure.I really dont know enough about how everything went down.I dont really know what the whole history is.
I mean do we? look into taking into account who had the most money, to maybe trying extra effort in evangelizing their countries religion in other countries with other religions the most.Do we? maybe also need to take into account all actions of past and present elected presidents some who might have been Christians, voted in by Christians who might have had special agendas and expectations, that underneath situations that eventuated over time maybe might even have sometimes been done with anti Muslim and Islam sentiment and intention.Do we? take into account a country it seems so religious with evangelical christianity, that even scopes supplied by certain companys to armed forces to fight in these terrorist places , stragley even had special christian! bible references engraved on them.
Why does the fault start or end?.
The thing is GTC its a whole different ball-game you are dealing with here in this Muslim conflict situation, than it is with just dealing with abortion clinics and christian fundies etc.Somehow a very large rift! has been driven between your country the USA ,and muslim countries .
For some reason Muslims dont seem to attack other countries quite like the same way they seem to have become intent to attack the USA.
Would you say the USA might have played some small part? in gaining all the personal attention of Muslims, that Muslims dont seem so keen to offer to other countries.Or would you say Muslims just purposely gained a special grudge against the USA, for absolutely no reason at all.
The thing is feuds can go on forever.But feuds like this do cost lots of money too , and as well as blood and death and it can all make a country slowly become very poor .Feuds like this can also sometimes cause loss of good friends and alliances as they too! get drawn into the troubles and feud, and start to share in the losses and costs and loss of friendships and even alliances also.
And in the end when everyones finally poor, is when the wolves simply step in for the kill and clean up.Clapping their hands for great joy! that all the money and extra education and power in the world, doesnt always necessarily equal the power of being who is most smart.
Now im not suggesting the USA is stupid at all.Im not even suggesting the USA is to blame.No not at all.Im just making a suggesting of use of caution, and applying all the best tactics you folks have available.
Any other time some crazy preachers had decided to burn faith book, whether they were Christian or Islamic or Hindu or any other faith book, just maybe i might have said ,good ..jolly great idea!.Sounds like fun .Can i come and get involved ? i got some venison sausages and butterfly steaks!! i can bring along.
Because to be quite honest , "personally" i cant say i really like the effect "any" of these faith books seem to have had on many folk.
Its just the present timing and situation that worrys me a little thats all.Some razor sharp hatchets need to be buried somehow,or this just aint ever going to end in anything other than blood and tears
Gandolf,
ReplyDelete"See GTC your rights still exist to even use dodgy tactic or be abusive ,that might happen to "curtail" my "right" not to need suffer dodgy tactic or be abused."
I don't understand what you're saying. I don't have a right to abuse others.
"If so happen you are bigger,or maybe have more money, more friends, or a bigger gang with larger weapons .Or laws made by some "others" dont happen to give a f**k about my rights and freedoms..I lose!"
I don't know about that, but having more money can help someon game the system because our system is not perfect.
"GTC talking about matter of who`s "fault" it might or might not be, maybe is another whole matter that maybe also is very deep, long standing, and could even be very complicated."
If we look at the simple case presented - that someone burns a Quran and a Muslim gets pissed off and kills an innocent, it is the fault of the Muslim for reacting violently and way out of proportion.
If you want to talk about US/ME relations, well that's a deeper subject that is rather complicated and has a lot of history to it. Certainly, our involvement in the area has helped to engender sore feelings at our country. Couple that with the religious differences, the economic realities (that most people there are poor), and the fact that many of those clinging to power use the US as a scapegoat in order to keep people down, and you weave a complicated web of people (on both sides) acting badly and leading to bad relations. I don't think I want to get into this discussion right now though, because it'll be a long one that we'll probably only end up agreeing over since we probably already agree.
I would rather be prosecuted in North America too.... I mean, that is what the difference is to me. They would do awful things to those soldiers.. I checked the news this morning and people have already died in the protests about this issue.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is, civil rights has a very different context there. If they were on our soil, we could punish them through the justice system. There, there is no chance of doing that.
@ Gandolf- I agree with what you are saying. And, I will keep my ear to the ground if I happen to encounter a hunter that actually travels (in Canada, not so common. They mostly go to different areas within the country). LOL.
"The fact is, civil rights has a very different context there. If they were on our soil, we could punish them through the justice system."
ReplyDeleteOver there, they will get shot and probably killed for initiating violence. And, although I'd prefer that we could prosecute them and all that, the reality of it is that they face a much harsher punishment. I'm not seeing why this is something that should make us appease them.
GTC said.."I don't understand what you're saying. I don't have a right to abuse others."
ReplyDeleteHi GTC...This is such a complicated matter maybe we wont ever understand each other.First lets remove the me or you,so you know anything i say is not making any personal suggestions about you.What i discuss with you is related to social systems you and i and others live in.Ok .I say this because i get the feeling you are actually a pretty reasonable type.
Now back to what i was talking about.They way our social societys are set up its fine to abuse people by calling them names .We may do all manner of sneaky things to harass the hell out of someone in particular.Our societies have been set up to say we have the freedom and rights to be doing so.And its considered legal as long as we stick within the rules and guide lines ,to abuse people this way .But yet its still a form of abuse just the same ,even if it might be legal abuse.
However the moment someone else who might have different circumstances and doesnt have the same ability to use the same abuse we did ,in return as a form of revenge as a way to try and do something to stick up for himself .Reverts to another form of abuse thats not been made legal ,out of frustration or what ever.
He/she gets nailed for doing so ! .Meaning there is really not always honest "rights" and "freedoms" , unless so happens you happen to be the one happy with the rights and freedoms that so happen to protect you and what you be happy with.
Anyone outside those rules of the so called social society ,can just learn to suck eggs ! if they dont like it.
1,So its not true that everyone has the right to be protected from abuse.
2,And some people do still have the right to find certian ways they can still legally abuse peeople.
You said.."I don't know about that, but having more money can help someon game the system because our system is not perfect."
Yes its true.The system is not perfect.There is still legal ways for people to abuse others.And some people have the ability through having more money,or social standing, or through any number of certain random situations have better ability to game the system and use these imperfection of the system against others.And purposely pick on them.
And then when out of such frustration, they suddenly choose to revert to other methods of abuse, that just so happens they do have the better ability to use .We nail them,because the imperfect laws have decided only certian "forms" of abuse are been made legal to use.
GCT said...If we look at the simple case presented - that someone burns a Quran and a Muslim gets pissed off and kills an innocent, it is the fault of the Muslim for reacting violently and way out of proportion.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to talk about US/ME relations, well that's a deeper subject that is rather complicated and has a lot of history to it. "
Dang it GCT sorry about that ...Dont know why but i keep getting the CT around the wrong way .Its not ever intended !.
Anyway regarding this above.In my opinion the problem is this matter has now become such a detailed matter that runs very deep.That things cant be seperated and looked at piece by piece.Because the fact is the way many of these Muslim folk see things now ,this whole issue to them runs far deeper than just being about some crazy precher up in the boom docks wanting to burn the Quran ."Many Muslim" will see this as the "USA as a whole" hating on Muslims in general who read the Quran.
It dont matter that its not the truth.Because going back further the fact is there has been far more than just this one crazy preacher at work trying to overrun Muslims .The fact that there was even companys involved in engraving Christian bible mesages on scope bound for the war and being issued to country all around the world ,headed for battle in places like Iraq and Afganastan proves it .Plus way back there has been a Christian under tow at work back by folk like George Bush ,trying their best to undermine Muslims to help with the Christian agenda! of converting Muislims to Christianity.
And even if its all quite seperate to this matter.If the USA want to try and find a way for both "sides to bury their hatchets" , the Muslim mindset that been formed "in part" by past underhand tactics of Christian agendas ...Needs to be understood.
Its no matter of cowering .Its a matter of using good tatics and good strategy that maybe you folks really need at the moment.
Now i feel ive said my peice.Its not my right to make decision for folks of the USA.If you folk feel these actions of some crazy preacher up in the boom dock burning the Quran should be thought ok and a good move to go towards helping sort out this conflict ...We folk from elswhere shouldnt be stopping you.
But i cant agree with it thats all .And me not agreeing to agree with it has nothing at all to do with any cowering .It has everything to do with tactics.And man can pretend to be the big man and stand tall and not cowering and act all strong and powerful ,yet still get himself totally slaughtered in the long run.
But how big and powerful and strong is he then?.
The thing is "in the past" there has been plenty religious undertows quietly at work in Muslim countries trying to manipulate matters ,that have helped fuel this hate towards the USA as a whole.
My opinion ! is the best strategy folks in the USA might have to turn around this hatered .Is to show Muslims folks in the USA in general have become publically united against.
That dont mean folks need to promote the Quran or even holy bibles ...Just show you folk in general dont have any personal hate towards the Muslim folk in general .
Because nasty Taliban who want to keep this hatered afloat will cease on any of these situations clapping their wee sweaty hands with great glee ,thanking Allah ! that folks in the USA would allow it to happen ..In effect gifting the Taliban and terrorist the right to cause more Muslims to become outraged and join up with them.
Yes its wrong.But still that dont matter, when thats still exactly how they will twist it! and make jooly good use of it! against you.
Peace ! and best wishes GCT
GCT said.."Over there, they will get shot and probably killed for initiating violence. And, although I'd prefer that we could prosecute them and all that, the reality of it is that they face a much harsher punishment. I'm not seeing why this is something that should make us appease them. "
ReplyDeleteOver there many have such extremely harsh lives they try liveing .Death even by bomb blast can seem like its just a blessing and a great way to end all the suffering and hardship.
Its not about appeasing them.And everything about understanding the whole situation of the bigger picture you are needing to deal with.
Lives that they live and the often harsh conditions and situations that they face ,dont tend to always promote clear thinking.Specially when the Taliban terrorist exist trying to turn anything they can find against those they hate.
The last thing you folk need is some crazy Christian preacher "handing the Taliban the ammo" to use back against your folk! to gain more recruits for the Teliban terrorist cause.
"Now back to what i was talking about.They way our social societys are set up its fine to abuse people by calling them names .We may do all manner of sneaky things to harass the hell out of someone in particular."
ReplyDeleteAbuse is still not allowed, nor is harrassment. But, one does not have the right to not be annoyed or offended. So, the problem comes in figuring out the delineation. Where is the line? How do we know when one has crossed it?
Do people cross the line and not get caught? Yes. It's because it's a tough thing to figure out and it's not cut and dried. This isn't a problem with our rights, but in how we figure out at what point one has violated the rights of another.
In the case of violence, it's much more obvious and it's not justified even if one feels that their rights have been violated. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Now, consider this, if I may pose it as a counter point. Some Xians have claimed that putting a crucifix in piss is abuse to them and their beliefs. Additionally, it's abuse for museum/gallery owners to display such offensive material. How would you address this?
"Dang it GCT sorry about that ...Dont know why but i keep getting the CT around the wrong way .Its not ever intended !."
No worries. And, you'd be surprised at just how many people do the exact same thing.
""Many Muslim" will see this as the "USA as a whole" hating on Muslims in general who read the Quran."
OK, but it doesn't justify their violence.
"Its no matter of cowering .Its a matter of using good tatics and good strategy that maybe you folks really need at the moment."
Except, that's not how it was couched. It was couched in terms of, "Don't burn that Quran because if you do the Muslims might attack us and we don't want to give them an excuse." The way it was presented was very much a case of curtailing actions for fear of reprisal.
"My opinion ! is the best strategy folks in the USA might have to turn around this hatered .Is to show Muslims folks in the USA in general have become publically united against."
I agree. I would also add that we need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. If we are serious about our values, then we need to display them, including having tolerance for things that we don't agree with that don't violate our rights and freedoms.
GCT said ..."So, the problem comes in figuring out the delineation. Where is the line? How do we know when one has crossed it?
ReplyDeleteDo people cross the line and not get caught? Yes. It's because it's a tough thing to figure out and it's not cut and dried. This isn't a problem with our rights, but in how we figure out at what point one has violated the rights of another."
GTC i agree with you .This is the problem.But at the same time i still have the "personal" opinion sometime some peoples freedoms and rights can be forgotten about,even if it only done so, because society has this trouble figuring out where the line should be drawn.Now i dont suggest Muslim right have been forgotten about with Quran burning.To me the issue in this situation is not Quran burning! ,its about using best strategy that suits the particular extremely special situation at hand.That being the big rift that been "driven" between Muslims and Americans ,in part by Christians! in the not yet so distant past.
But anyway folks will continue to differ in what their thought is about that thing of forgotten the freedom and rights i mentioned.Just as many folks thoughts differed the same about slavery or racism etc.And when violence occured it wasnt fun ,it maybe wasnt justifible .But it happened just the same and maybe without ,things may not have changed.
And i agree with all else you said that two wrongs dont make matters right etc.And that violence is not a good way to react.But we deal with humans possessing human nature who get frustrated and become disturbed.
Does that justify it? .no not at all ...But its not about justifying anything ..Its about finding some real understanding of whats going on and happening ,how and why its happening etc.
I agree with you this idea that burning books should be allowed to offend people so bad and make them this angry this way ..is stupid and wrong ..and should change.Religious folks including and specially Muslims need to learn this wont be acceptable.
But the strategy we use of how we go about doing that is important.
Id be all for saying go right ahead .. burn books ! ..If this "particular situation" we dealing with hadnt already previously been driven towards becoming so extremely volitile and right on the edge.With Taliban waiting to find any ammo to use.
Anyway GCT as a NZealander far far away where we dont even have these same kind of problems effecting us.All i can say is i hope things get better for you folks over there.Like i said when we see these things happening and folks loved ones getting sent home in coffins and stuff ,it makes many of us very sad too.
Most of us don't like people coming home in bags either, and I hope that someday we can figure out a way for people to use reason and rationality to solve problems instead of fighting over who has the bigger god.
ReplyDelete