Wow.... I cannot believe that I just read this. Here is a quote that I just read from a Christian blogger. I am going to start a new series of these random statements that I find. Say what you will. Here is the full link so that you can properly contextualize what she said. But, below is the full quote:
A small incident that occurred recently, underscores what seems all wrong to me about Hell. I watched a 2010 rendition of the Diary of Anne Frank on TV. As is typical, I wept in the ending where it showed the Franks and their attic mates being found and taken by the Nazis. Following that scene, this rendition went on to print out how each of them died, accounting how Anne died in a concentration camp. Later when I was talking with my husband John the thought came to both he and myself that it was possible that both Anne and Hitler ended up in Hell. Boy does that seem totally unreasonable! Hitler in hell seems just, but one of his victims- my heart says that's not fair!
I believe that the two greatest evils on this planet are poverty and religion. The author of this comment, to be fair, appears to be intelligent about her faith. She is critical of the Bible, and apprehensive of things that do not make sense to her. However, if she thinks this way, with the manner in which she presents, we are all doomed, and religious differences really will destroy us.
ReplyDeleteSuch a sad day to have read this.
both Anne and Hitler ended up in Hell
ReplyDeleteAllright Tink. Let me narrow this down for you a bit..
If only one of the above, (Hitler or Frank) actually wound up in hell, which one do you think it would be and why?
No-one deserve infinite punishment for finite crimes.
ReplyDeleteNo id say it actually is quite likely they both ended up in a man made type hell at some stage JD.
ReplyDeleteA man made hell brought on by the thoughts of utter stupidity of such ignorant ancient barbaric human earthly thinking of the likelyhood of such unproven places.
JD- Read it.... It is a quote from another person. The link above will show you how the quote was actually contextualized within her entire posting. She is saying, because of what she believes, they will both go to Hell. I would encourage you to look for yourself and see what Christianity does to the brain.
ReplyDeleteJD- And to answer your trolling question.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe in hell. Neither.
JD
ReplyDeleteIf you wish to argue that her Christian interpretation of hell is wrong because it differs from your Christian interpretation of hell, be my guest. This is no discussion to have with me because I do not believe in it.
Gandolf- Nice to see you again!!!
I agree completely with what you are saying. Here is the catch. I posted this because I feel that it really encapsulates the type of psychological prison that religion creates in people. I cannot imagine having thoughts like that. I cannot even fathom viewing humanity through this type of filter. If you see people along such distinct lines, what would be the point in getting up in the morning? What would be the incentive in being active in your community? It is a really scary statement, and I feel that it really captures exactly why religion is bad for people.
Ethinethin- Noone is punished. When you die, food for worms. Enjoy each day as you have it.
"If only one of the above, (Hitler or Frank) actually wound up in hell, which one do you think it would be and why?"
ReplyDeleteGiven your conception of god and the Bible, it would be Frank who ends up in hell for the "sin" of not believing that Jesus is the way to heaven. Remember, you claim it is "faith alone" that brings salvation, so no matter what happens to Anne, she goes to hell for not having the right faith. And, no matter what Hitler did, as long as he had the right faith, he goes to heaven. Your theology is morally bankrupt, no matter how much you try to apologize for it.
Nice work, well done. End of story. Again, though, this will be the whole my interpretative stance is right, and yours is wrong.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, you could take this one more step deeper into the abyss.
ReplyDeleteAccording to theology, when we die we all meet God, and he decides where we all go. When Hitler died, he would meet his maker, and if he honestly repented his sins, and wanted to be forgiven, he would be going straight through the pearly gates to Heaven. If she did, she will not have that chance cause she is Jewish. Insane.
Tink said..."I think that she is saying, because the Bible has taught her to believe, that all non Christians will go to hell. Anne Frank for being Jewish, Hitler for his sins against humanity. And, as a human she disagrees with this. "
ReplyDeleteYeah Tink....And i was thinking they probily both been almost to hell and back,with a head ache while just thinking so much about it.Psychological prison it is for many for sure, Tink
And that psychological prison will make some of them act in the most terrible manner.I doubt that all involved really wished to be burning people at stakes ,and i know for sure many families do not really wish to seperate and excommunicate from loved family members etc.
Many do such nasty things, through fear of otherwise missing out on salvation
The best part, I went on there and expressed how malicious this was. I gave her the benefit of the doubt, and watched for her reaction. Of course, she does not acknowledge this, and goes on to say that she stands by it because its what scripture says. Which, absolves her of all personal responsibility for how nefarious her comments really are.
ReplyDeleteWhich brings me back to it. This is the kind of evil that lies behind the mask of "compassion" that this rhetoric produces. This is why more people need to be open about the secularism. The more quieter we are, the louder they can get. This type of stuff just makes me more determined to fight these hypocrites and call them on their bullshit.
Life has been really hectic lately so I've not has as much time for internet stuff as I'd have liked. But I wanted to make sure to take the time to first of all thank you for commenting on my blog.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I did not reply to you is because you said I was malicious, and to candid, I was at a loss of how to reply to being sort of, for lack of a better phrase, "name called".
You do not know me, and I felt it not appropriate for me to go into how I live my life, how I contribute to my community. live frugally so as to be able to give to organizations that help people in the US and abroad, serve and reach out to others as a lifestyle, etc. The reason I didn't want to say this is because it sounds goofy, prideful, and as if I'm praising myself. Yet I want to raise the point that you do not know that I'm a malicious person yet you make this comment because you don't like my religion. Anyone who has at all studied the standard tenants of historic Christianity would know that my comments are completely within the context of my religion. While you certainly can say that you disagree with Christianity, think Christianity is harmful, etc. I think it's best to live in a way that is respectful toward others' beliefs. I have several friends who adhere to other religions, are unsure about faith, or a few who are even Atheists. We all show respect for one another even though we do not agree. I recognize that sometimes, because the types of issues raised by religion are intense, there's a tendency to want to be emphatic, but to be respectful and not call names always seems best to me. I can disagree with people and still act respectful, keeping the focus on the beliefs, not making personal comments.
My blog is a place where I'm open and honest about my life and my faith. I think anyone, of any belief system, if he or she is honest, struggles with questions and doubts. Questions, searching, are part of the human experience. Whenever anyone says or acts like they've got all the answers and have it all nailed down tight in this little box; I ask myself in my head if that person is being honest with him/herself, if he/she is just the type of person who doesn't get into thinking too deeply, or if he/she has just not had as hard a life as me, has not dealt with as many people who are truly suffering as I have.
Actually, I appreciate your response. I am glad that you have responded to me, and I respect your honesty. However, in no way did I personally attack you. By all means, I attacked your belief system, but not you. In fact, I believe that I called you compassionate at one point. If you look carefully, I did not personally call you malicious. I said; "This is about the most malicious thing that I have ever read." And, I also qualified my comment by attempting to provide you with the benefit of the doubt. If you feel that I attacked you, I apologize. I am a blunt person, and I say what I think.
ReplyDeleteI am a person with no faith. I have had no religious upbringing, no concept of hell has been shoved down my throat. Pardon, for lack of a better way of saying it, your comment sounded just that to these types of ears- malicious. It is shocking to me that anyway could see an innocent child, or anyone for that matter, having any type of fate like this, no matter what doctrine of belief that they subscribe too.
I would urge you to attempt to see this through my eyes. I would also urge you to look at the danger that this type of perception of Jewish people is dangerous. Being respectful of other people's beliefs does not mean that your anxiety over her supernatural fate is rational, nor does it cancel the cruelty of the comment. And, yes, I agree with you that your comments are well within the context of your religion; I completely agree with you that Christianity, has historically sanctioned Jewish people to the "outsider" fate, and that there are indeed scriptures in the Bible that make your comments entirely appropriate. A In no way are you off base that way. It does not mean that I cannot find it cruel. Change can begin with one person.
I do not believe, in any way that I have the answers as you seem to allude too. Nor would I profess to know what it would be like to contend with the issues that you have had in your life, nor would you know mine. Whatever the reasons we run, or run from, religion are highly personal and specific, and really are noone's business at the end of the day. However, belonging to a religion does not engender anyone the right to compartmentalize other people, and then have guilt over it.
Quite frankly, I am sure that you are a charitable person, you seem to present that way. There is no real nice way to put this- I questioned those things because that is the raw way that your comment hit me. I was not specifically stating that you do not do charitable work, it was more of a generalized angst against religion? Why would people be motivated to help others if they see nonbelievers as going to hell? What is the point of being active for all people in your community if you feel the need to save us all from hell? Perhaps you may enlighten me with some answers.
And the bottom line of this all, and the true existential core of it all is that your comment raised this question in me; What hope does this world have if fairly liberal Christians like yourself (and I say that respectfully) still think that Jews, and nonbelievers, go to hell?
Tracey- I have one last idea, humor me.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that we both agree on is that this indoctrination is not right. We may have different positions, but more or less, we have the same platform. Why don't you try this? Practice civil disobedience within the institution. You see, folks like me bear no weight, I am nothing but a secularist. But, folks like you do, and you are in a privileged position to demand change.
Sit down and write a list of all the things that your church says non Christians in one month. Then, fight. Start becoming a "conscientious objector". When they talk about others with no compassion, walk out. When they preach against civil rights, refuse to give a donation, and vocalize openly why you are not doing so. Start petitioning and lobbying other people in your congregation. Force them to consider what they teach to all of you. Go to the top, explain what you find objectionable. Fight for change, rather than becoming upset about how it makes you feel. Blog your experiences, record their sermons, broadcast them, undermine this rhetoric every step of the way. I would be happy to assist you in way that I could. I would even help you write your letters, etc.
Its all about what I said on your blog- You can't stay neutral on a moving train. Your train has moved, and this is the direction its going on. You can become useful in your disagreement.
No-one deserve infinite punishment for finite crimes
ReplyDeleteBullocks.
If you were to break into my house, 20 years from now as I am getting ready to retire in style, and you steal all of the dough I've been socking away under my mattress and now my retirement plans are ruined, does that constitute a "finite" sin?
Sure, it only took you about 5 minutes to jimmy the lock and check under the mattress and then you were gone. But the effects of your crime now stay with me for the rest of my life and even may lead to bitterness in the next world if you believe in that sort of thing.
Likewise, arent some forms of abuse likely to leave permanent damage?
These are just a couple of examples. It seems clear that God views sin much more seriously than we do.
You mentioning of "finite sin" constitutes little more than regurgitating tired, worn-out atheist talking points with little foundation in truth or what the Bible actually says.
Oh yes, cause stealing from you is the worst thing that can happen to humanity....
ReplyDeleteActually, no shock. Most of what we have said went over your head.
JD said..."But the effects of your crime now stay with me for the rest of my life and even may lead to bitterness in the next world if you believe in that sort of thing."
ReplyDeleteOh so Jesus will even also be bitter in heaven for being nailed to the cross?.
Holy heck ??? ....The story keeps changing ...We kick the ball only to find the goal post were just shifted somewhere !! ^%$$&*#@???
Im with you thought JD, im totally against folks pinching the cash you worked hard for,but losing money isnt really worth hating and wanting to punish folks forever.Besides hopefully there is still ways we humans can help each other try and get by these problems.
Im kinda pissed off about the effect promotion of faith had on my life,and im pretty vocal about what i think about it too.Sure i get real angry quite often,but still i dont hope folks will be tortured forever in eternity for it,that wouldnt change things and in the end i`d start feeling just as nasty knowing folks are suffering forever.
My anger is more aimed at hoping this faith abuse stops at some stage.I try to keep my anger focused more at changing the future for others,so hopefully others need not go through the same crap.
Hopeing to have people suffer for some eternity, wont do anything at all to change what happened in my past.Wishing some eternal suffering on those who made me suffer,would make me no better than the abusers were .Surely it would maybe make me even worse than they meant to be.
I cant help thinking maybe this faith idea of some eternal damnation, might just be fired up by some anger thoughts by people of old...Looking to for ways to try to appease their hatered and apply ways to control through fear
Tracy,
ReplyDelete"Yet I want to raise the point that you do not know that I'm a malicious person yet you make this comment because you don't like my religion. Anyone who has at all studied the standard tenants of historic Christianity would know that my comments are completely within the context of my religion."
That doesn't get the ideas and the comments off the hook (and like Tink, I'm not speaking about you, but about the tenets of Xianity). Being in the context of one's religion does not absolve ideas of their moral weight (for lack of a better term). When a Muslim claims that suicide bombings are within the context of their religion, do we simply shrug our shoulders and say, "Oh well," or do we point out that such teachings are immoral and ghastly? I feel the same way about the Xian teachings regarding hell.
"While you certainly can say that you disagree with Christianity, think Christianity is harmful, etc. I think it's best to live in a way that is respectful toward others' beliefs."
I disagree. We should be respectful of people, but not necessarily of beliefs. I'm not respectful of the belief that certain people are inferior simply because of their skin color, and I doubt that you are respectful of that belief as well. Beliefs, such as the one that all people deserve eternal torment and torture, are simply not worthy of our respect and I think you are a better person than to go along with such inhumane ideas.
Wow JD, you are a mean person. You think that stealing from you warrants someone being tortured for eternity? That's what is bullocks.
ReplyDelete"You mentioning of "finite sin" constitutes little more than regurgitating tired, worn-out atheist talking points with little foundation in truth or what the Bible actually says."
You can't bully your way out of this one. All sins are finite as all humans are finite and the effects that we can have are finite. It's not tired or worn-out to acknowledge this fact (unless you can prove that there are infinite effects that can be accomplished and that they merit infinite torture). And, this specific point isn't about what the Bible says, meaning that once again you are barking up the wrong tree.
He is so egocentric that he thinks that stealing from him would qualify eternal punishment.
ReplyDelete@ GCT- I agree, and you got to the point quicker than I did. Standing by and saying "The Bible Said" does not wash. At least as humans, we are capable of thinking about it. I think my whole point was this- Yes, you are "right" in supporting biblically sanctioned Anti Semitism (cause at the end of the day, that is what it is), but why are you? And, that is why it is malicious.
@Gandolf- Yes, and this is the psychological prison that religion does to people. Look at the contradiction. Having guilt. People have a choice, they step on and blindly accept, or they fight for change and refuse to accept it.
@JD
ReplyDelete"If you were to break into my house, 20 years from now as I am getting ready to retire in style, and you steal all of the dough I've been socking away under my mattress and now my retirement plans are ruined, does that constitute a "finite" sin?"
Yes, that does constitute a finite crime. I did not simply mean the act of the crime itself (the act of theft in your example) but the effects as well (the financial ruin). The effects of this crime are finite because they end when you -- or your children, or anyone else effected by it -- die.
The problem with posting this sort of content is that it gives the impression that religious people somehow have a monopoly on saying offensive things, when that's clearly not the case. For example, last weekend outspoken social commentator and comedian Catherine Deveny attended a TV awards ceremony in Melbourne. Granted this awards show is pretty boring, and she had to kill time somehow, but she chose to amuse herself by posting inappropriate Twitter comments about various TV celebrities who were guests on the night, including Bindi Irwin, the daughter of the late Steve Irwin, Crocodile Hunter. For this she was sacked from her newspaper column.
ReplyDelete@ Ross- All due respect, I have no idea what you are getting at here. I posted the full link so that you can contextualize what she said. I have never claimed that only religious people monopolize this, I could have a full blog just pointing out other things that I dislike in pop culture. But, I have a very specific focus of research, and this just flew under my radar. Hell, I could do a whole blog on fashion alone. Trust me on that.
ReplyDeleteAnyone else getting an error message when they try to visit Tracy's blog?
ReplyDeleteI get a message saying that it has been removed.
ReplyDeleteThe effects of this crime are finite because they end when you -- or your children, or anyone else effected by it -- die
ReplyDeleteAnd how would you go about proving that? Are you assuming that this plane of existance is the only one there is and that you know for certain that there is no afterlife?
I have no idea who and what you are talking about JD.
ReplyDeletePoint taken.
ReplyDeleteJD is claiming a couple things here.
ReplyDelete1) That if we can't prove he's wrong that means he's right.
2) That god is mysterious and not understandable, so therefore he's justified in torturing us in any way he wants.
3) Specifically that there may be other planes of existence where our crimes go on for infinity, thus making god's eternal torture justified.
Of course, point 3 raises some issues. For instance, do our souls supposedly exist in all these planes simultaneously? What evidence do we have for these planes? How would it justify the use of torture? How would our crimes live on forever? Why would god set up a system where our crimes could go on for forever, since he's supposedly omni-benevolent and all that and god ensuring the existence of infinite crime would be contradictory to that?
Also, I should point out that if there is an afterlife, it's spent in heaven or hell according to JD, so that's no help for him.
Too bad... Tracey folds up house, JD keeps on going. And, yet, they insist that God exists. Sigh.
ReplyDeleteTracy is back.
ReplyDelete