A coworker of mine told me about this. Quebec public daycares are banning all religion within their centres. Love it. Quite frankly, I am shocked that it is even on the table because they are feeding from the public taxpaying trough and it should not be there in the first place. Here it is;
Have you ever heard the phrase "Politics make strange bedfellows"? (That's not a come on either Tink) he he.
ReplyDeleteI'm not in favor of any state regulated faith biases or practices either. If I want my kid to go to a Christian School then I should have to pay for it. And as long as we still have the right to do that people shouldn't complain.
Late, feeno
Completely agree with you. It seems like all other religions seem to agree with that, but Christians are the ones who mostly waste the taxpayer money with their court battles. Religious education is specialized, and that costs money. I have no issue with that at all, but not on public money.
ReplyDeleteI know.... Insane. I had no idea.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a kid, I can remember my teacher reading us the story of JC being crucified in my kindergarten class at Easter. This was a public school, and I can remember being very scared by it. Luckily, I told my dad about it when I got home and the voice of reason spoke. He told me that they were trying to scare me.
I would not want any child feeling like that. And, to use public monies for that crap is despicable.
I like how Canada is more progressive on pushing religion out of the secular and public classrooms. I wish America would be more like that.
ReplyDeleteMe too.... I think that we are more progressive because our politicians have more control... They have more power, but they are also more accountable. Which, in this case is a good thing.
ReplyDeleteThe distinction between public and private is very clear here. Because our money is pooled into public resources (schools, etc) we have a say, and the government is very accountable to how they spend our collective money. We have been able to clear this shit out of the public sphere with this. Privately, you can do what you want. If you want to create a school that specifically teaches that the sky is red, you can do that. That is your right, just do not expect public money to fund it. And, do not impose it on the public.
ReplyDeleteFor example, at the start of the Legislative Assembly everyday in Ontario, they used to begin the day with the Lord's Prayer. Because our Charter of Rights and Freedoms specifies that you cannot conduct a public religious display that favors one religion, or neglects other religions, or portrays distinction to one, they were given a choice by the Civil Liberty Association. Either you say them all, or you say none. Needless to say, its gone.
I consider myself very lucky. I can pretty much get through the day with absolutely no external reminder of religion. Many of our American counterparts shudder at Canada. They correctly identify that they would most likely be charged with hate crimes here. We are actually not allowing Christian kids to "sit out" on tolerance classes mandated by the government toward homosexuals. They have tried, but they were ruled against. They were told that you can teach them at home, but in the public, we are all responsible to learn the impact of discrimination and tolerance for all citizens. It is interesting.
"If you want to create a school that specifically teaches that the sky is red, you can do that. That is your right, just do not expect public money to fund it. And, do not impose it on the public."
ReplyDeleteTink,
This brings up a tough/interesting question - is it really someone's right to teach children such absurdities? Should parents have the right to teach children intolerance/falsities/etc? The real losers here are the children that are taught these things.
Parents feel they have the right to teach their children whatever they want, but do they really? Do not the children have rights in this?
(Note: I know that it's off topic, but I was thinking about it.)
GCT
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot more to being a parent than to just feed and clothe them little sum bitches. One of the greatest responsibilities we have as a mom or dad is to teach our kids what is important in life, and why we feel that way.
Who else should teach our kids? The state? Psychiatrists? (That bunch are mostly all wack jobs). Would you like me teaching your kids what's up? How about the kids teachers or principle?
It's amazing to me how Christians are labeled intolerant (like you just mentioned above) yet you think it's OK to say that Christian kids are losers because they are taught "these" things.
Kids have rights, and if there being abused someone should step in and protect them. But who gets to draw the line where what we teach is abuse? Also you need to give kids more credit, many, many kids when they turn 18 drop out of church. Some are smart and stay. I was pretty much brought up in the church. I slept through church services, got with many church girls, drank beer every weekend and did what ever I felt like doing. Must have been all that indoctrination that made me behave so well? People will make up their own mind about these things and kids are people too.
GCT, did you ever think tho, that many of these Christian kids are raised by loving, caring people that taught their kids to respect others beliefs. I can't speak for all people, and I'm not trying to make this a competition, but I'd say my kids respect atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, or any other group, more than they are respected by people who believe Christians shouldn't have the right to teach their kids about their Creator.
I've worked with kids for a long time. Most of the Christians kids that I'm close to, are all very normal kids, they like video games, sports, the mall the opposite sex and Chipotle.
When they grow up some will remain in their faith, some will leave. Some will leave and then come back. We all have minds, everyone should be free to think for themselves, even kids.
Peace and hair grease, feeno
@ GCT- I was just saying that cause I was being extreme. However, I do agree with you and Feeno. Here is the thing.
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with baptisms before 18. I think that it is a form of child abuse. I found out, about a year ago, that my mom fought my dad and had me christened when I was young. I got really mad at him (cause he is atheist) and asked him why he did not stop that. He just kinda said that he went along with it to placate my mom.
I called her, and confronted her, and was ready to hear her out. I was pretty mad, and managed to contain it. She gave me this, which I was sensitive too. She said that I was born small with underdeveloped lungs, and got pneumonia after. There were some dark days, she was young and scared. She saw it as a chance of getting both her and I done, even though my dad would not do it. Here is where that ended. I asked her if it had ever occurred to her if that would be something that I would be okay with, or if it could ever something that may not be what I wanted, and she refused to even entertain the question. She displayed a blatant disregard for the fact that I was offended that my wishes never entered into the equation. She admitted that she never sat back and thought to herself "Maybe this kid will not want this someday." And, to make it worse, she offers absolutely no apology. So, to spite her, I told her that i was going to walk over hot coals to officially get debaptized. And, she believes me which is awesome.
My point- I felt really betrayed that my mother felt the liberty to make that decision for me. I do not believe that it should be done to anyone until it becomes their free choice. Let them learn your ways, sure. But, I think that its more important to teach kids how to critically interpret information before they have that imposed on them. And, in this book that I am cowriting this summer, we are going to talk about this. I really would advocate to have that banned before 18.
feeno,
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you're taking more from my comment than what was intended.
"One of the greatest responsibilities we have as a mom or dad is to teach our kids what is important in life, and why we feel that way."
But, if we teach them known falsehoods, isn't that wrong?
"It's amazing to me how Christians are labeled intolerant (like you just mentioned above) yet you think it's OK to say that Christian kids are losers because they are taught "these" things."
I didn't label anyone as intolerant, and you're taking the "loser" out of context. "Loser" in this sense is someone who has gotten a raw deal, not "loser" in the sense of a rotten person. So, in this sense, if we teach our children that the Earth is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie, are they not losing out on the empirically verifiable truth? Are we not stunting their ability to critically think, join the ranks of scientific study later in life, etc?
"Kids have rights, and if there being abused someone should step in and protect them. But who gets to draw the line where what we teach is abuse?"
That's part of what I'm asking? Is it abusive to teach that evolution is a lie?
"Also you need to give kids more credit, many, many kids when they turn 18 drop out of church."
I give kids lots of credit for that ;)
"GCT, did you ever think tho, that many of these Christian kids are raised by loving, caring people that taught their kids to respect others beliefs."
I don't doubt that many of these parents are well-meaning, and some do teach their kids to respect others, although I would argue that it's more important to respect other people than to respect their beliefs. That's not the point though. Kids do have rights and we can't simply ignore that to allow parents to have autonomy over their kids.
"...more than they are respected by people who believe Christians shouldn't have the right to teach their kids about their Creator."
Again, you're reading more into what I wrote than what I actually wrote. I haven't made any position yet, simply asked the questions.
"I've worked with kids for a long time. Most of the Christians kids that I'm close to, are all very normal kids, they like video games, sports, the mall the opposite sex and Chipotle."
Well, anyone who doesn't like Chipotle needs to have their head examined.
"We all have minds, everyone should be free to think for themselves, even kids."
And, that's the point of this whole thing. By teaching only one faith, one point of view, are we allowing our children to be free to think for themselves? I would certainly argue that teaching known lies is a doing a disservice to children, although it's not as bad if the parent also allows or helps the child to see the other side (it would still be bad IMO). But, where should the line be drawn, and how do we deal with it? I honestly don't know...which is why I'm asking the questions.
If I had a kid, it would be raised with no religion whatsoever. Nothing. My girlfriends raises her kids similar to this, and she has to explain and rationalize to her family why they are not told about "heaven". I agree with her.
ReplyDelete@ GCT- I agree with your questioning, and I think that it is the right questions to ask. Again, I think that the answer lies not in what you teach your kids, but in how to teach them to think about what you teach them. I don't know if that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteGCT
ReplyDeleteW'dup my brotha? I did sound a bit defensive and I'm sorry about that. But the Jury is still out on a 6,000 year old earth. And now that my kid who will graduate in May from college and learned all about evolution in a public high school and now 4 years of college can make up her own mind. And I don't believe anyone should teach "intolerance". Do you believe everything we're taught in public schools? I wouldn't teach a "known falsehood" either, that's why I teach my kids about God. I'm not saying atheists are wrong, I'm saying they should have the right to teach their kids the positive message of their belief. You know, you evolved from a monkey which evolved from some slimy amoeba 4 trillion years ago, and that it slurped it's way out of a murky pond somewhere and this is all there is. And when you die your body will rot and decay. To be eaten by maggots and worms until your shit out to become wonderful fertilizer to help a beautiful flower grow. And when that kid gets older he will either accept this or not. I wont take that right away from a parent, even tho I disagree with it.
Ultimately the responsibility rests on the shoulders of the parents until the kids decide for themselves. Let's look at this from a practical manner. There are millions of people, who were once kids, that were raised "pick a religion" and then became something else or even atheists. And there are millions of people who were raised with no god and then became "pick a religion" later on in life.
I know you are just asking the question, so let me try to answer it like this. As long as a parent isn't teaching his children to physically harm people or their stuff then we need to learn to live with the rest. That is just my opinion, I could be wrong? I certainly hope tho, that one day people wont be getting arrested just because of what we think about others.
I mean sheez, even God gives people free-will.
Peace in Mississippi, feeno
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Tink, Things are getting heated up in Quebec and your blog. Nice Post.
You told your Mom you were gonna walk through hot coals to "de-baptize" yourself. That's awesome.
Late, feeno
Tink,
ReplyDelete"If I had a kid, it would be raised with no religion whatsoever."
Meaning no indoctrination or no education on the various religious thoughts out there? I agree that children should not be raised in a specific religion, as they should have the ability to choose one (or none) when they are ready to do so, but we should certainly inform them of all the choices.
"Again, I think that the answer lies not in what you teach your kids, but in how to teach them to think about what you teach them. I don't know if that makes sense."
It does, and there's a large element of how you teach that goes into it. It's a hugely complex question set to ask, and I freely confess I don't have the answers.
feeno,
ReplyDelete"W'dup my brotha? I did sound a bit defensive and I'm sorry about that."
No need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure you understood where I was coming from on this.
"But the Jury is still out on a 6,000 year old earth."
No, it's not.
"And I don't believe anyone should teach "intolerance"."
I would assume that most people would agree with you. The problem is that some (I'm not implying that you are part of this group) do teach intolerance, even sometimes without understanding that they are doing it and without meaning to.
"Do you believe everything we're taught in public schools?"
It's been a while, but no, of course not. That's because knowledge is a provisional thing and our depth of knowledge is continually changing and getting better.
"I wouldn't teach a "known falsehood" either, that's why I teach my kids about God."
Known falsehoods would include things that contradict facts and evidence we do have. god is sort of a grey area since we don't know that god doesn't exist, but we have no evidence that he does. The evidence we do have leads us to strongly suspect that he doesn't exist.
"I wont take that right away from a parent, even tho I disagree with it."
Should that really be a right though? That's the fundamental question.
"There are millions of people, who were once kids, that were raised "pick a religion" and then became something else or even atheists. And there are millions of people who were raised with no god and then became "pick a religion" later on in life."
I'd be willing to bet, however, that most people end up being the religion that their parents were, just as conservative parents tend to have conservative kids, for example.
"As long as a parent isn't teaching his children to physically harm people or their stuff then we need to learn to live with the rest. That is just my opinion, I could be wrong?"
And there's some validity to that. I too would like to start with a live and let live sort of attitude. I'm just asking about the next step and looking to take the children's rights view.
"I certainly hope tho, that one day people wont be getting arrested just because of what we think about others."
Unlike the Xian god, I would never advocate thought crime as an offense, and that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about when the parents go from thoughts to actions - when they act on those thoughts.
"I mean sheez, even God gives people free-will."
Not if god is omni-max he doesn't. But, that's another story.
"Peace in Mississippi"
And elsewhere I hope ;)
"But the Jury is still out on a 6,000 year old earth."
ReplyDeleteNope, with GCT on that one.... Absolutely not. It is a fact that the Earth is 4 Billion Years old.
Meaning no indoctrination or no education on the various religious thoughts out there? I agree that children should not be raised in a specific religion, as they should have the ability to choose one (or none) when they are ready to do so, but we should certainly inform them of all the choices.
I think, I would borrow my sister's (who is actually my cousin, but is more like a sister) type of attitude toward this thing. She just acts like its no big deal, discusses it with her kids in a factual, objective way, and sets an example of not going to church, etc. I would encourage my kid to study history and science, and take it from there. I would nurture critical thinking skills first and foremost, and a focus on the scientific method for appraisal of information for later on.